Major Contentions in AD&D: Part 1?

Debatable AD&D Interpretations

With the OSRIC Kickstarter looming in the new year, many wonder how different it is to AD&D. Further more, with people learning AD&D, questions come up that generate contention. The people who have been stewarding AD&D for newer generations have specific takes on the game. I am writing this blog post as a survival guide for navigating these conversations (or ignoring them).

An interpretation of a rule isn't the same as a house rule if it can be argued as Rules as Written (RAW) or By the Book (BTB). This is a oddly specific but necessary distinction as conversations about how to play AD&D are assumed to be RAW, which makes responding with a house rule without specifying it often like farting in a moment of silence. So people have a subconscious motivation to justify their interpretation as a RAW, which is natural, but some of those cases people are using the Law of Omission to stake a claim under the flag of "well it doesn't specifically say X", which makes things messy.

Messy is what we don't want in teaching spaces, because people are asking direct, often foundational, questions. Some people love watching debates fly, especially if they are wide-eyed first timers, but just as many people are lead to confusion by these common contentions. 

Other interpretations are reasonable readings of the rules, what was said, what wasn't said, and how it dovetails into the rest of the system. They have been debated, cited, counter-cited, and running on the fumes of belief for decades. These aren't posted here to invite debate: that's been done and it's tired. And I have no interest in it, only that people are aware of these. It's for information and reference. I am biased because I am me and this is my blog. These are the Major Contentions in AD&D and they will always be.

Overarching Initiative

First up, is the major one. AD&D Initiative Controversy There isn't a whole lot to say here other than what's written in that linked thread, but some of it's splinter-children result in some of the other major contentions. One of the major differences is that, basically, spill-over segments from actions that did not complete within the 60 seconds of a combat round, complete at the end of the round rather than work their way into the following combat round.

When does casting start in the combat round? 

The debate comes down to: "If the party initiative is 3, then when does the Fireball start casting?" 

I say that on segment 3 you start casting, and finish the end of segment 5. This means you can be interrupted (not merely struck to be unable to cast that round) to lose the spell while being hit on segments 3-5. 

Others say you start on segment 1 and finish segment 5. So you can be interrupted at any time to lose that spell.

Others say you start on segment 1 and finished the end segment 3, which greatly reduces the window of interruption outside of a melee condition.

And others say something else, usually involving not calculating the segment additive of casting time as X-1.

When does movement start in the combat round?

This is a contentious position in that movement cannot be totally free, but how people have walked away from the rulebooks with conclusions has varied quite a bit.

I say that any action that is not contested, that it happens along the timeline of segment to segment play. Therefore, if there is a combat round where your fighter and cleric are in a melee with 4 ogres, but the thief wants to head down the corridor away from the fight to watch the rear, he just goes. He doesn't wait 24 segments into a combat round to move: he just does. 

If he wanted to charge from outside of the room, then nothing is stopping him. He is running at the ogres recklessly and this is taken into account with the charge AC penalty. He begins the movement of his charge on segment 1, he does not wait 24 segments to start.

If he wanted to pull out a potion from his pack, drink it, and then move, I would calculate all of those actions as segment costs. Just like the example in the DMG:

The other point of view, while also being argued as RAW, is simpler to execute. You do the thing you need to do starting on your initiative. This removed some of the potency of a charge attack. And if a charge attack started in a surprise round and didn't complete into the next round, then that's a consideration for the very first point of Overarching Initiative.

How are characters with high dexterity who do not get surprised handled during segments of surprise?

There is a method that says they are simply not surprised. They don't get their own actions, as they don't have surprise. But they don't have the status that surprise would give such as being attacked at the rate of 1 round (or 3 if prepared missile fire) per segment.

There is another one that lets them act in their segment, therefore making the surprise segments a miniature round. 

In terms of game balance, it doesn't differ much in practice, but you are making surprise by a pack of monsters much less threatening if you have a few party members with reaction adjustments that can also react. 

Attacks at the end of a charge are attack routines?

The rulebooks are not clear on whether the attack at the end of a charge is an attack (singular), or an attack routine. I choose attack routines, which benefits haste and dual-wielding, especially at higher levels, and makes monster ambushes a bit more potent. 

When looking at this in conjunction with the surprise rules, I feel that it scales better into the level 8-9 range when monsters need more attack rolls to hit better AC heroes for there to be some attrition. While the special abilities and explosive powers they face can turn the tide of combat against the players easily, melee is one of the things that is the easiest to mitigate if the economy of attacks is too low. Likewise, shoving 200 monsters into rooms shows as a contrivance to the players, where is establishing a two-sided rule that always existed means that you can get your extra economical attack roll balancing naturally. It's also more fun.

Weapon Speed of Natural Attacks

Natural attacks have no weapon speed. Or they are the same as fists. This is a melee initiative tie-breaker issue. If they have no weapon speed, some rule that any weapon with a speed attacks first. Others rule that having no weapon speed, means they attack first.

Natural Weapons vs Weapon Length at the end of a charge

There is support in the DMG to use reach as a decider on what attacks hit first on a charge. But like weapon speed, it's never given any guidance. I have natural attacks return hits on their initiative. Trent over at mystical-trash-heap suggests using 1 foot for every 3 feet of height. 

Minor Honorable Mentions

When do Assassins get Thief Skills?

Assassins function as thieves at two levels lower. Some say that means they don't get thief abilities until level 3. Some say they function as a level 1 thief up until level 3. Others even look at the progression of thief abilities and map it backwards to reduce the rates.

How do we handle monsters with multiple ACs?

There's no direct guidance for fighting, say, a Bulette.

The AC is for different locations. You can randomize it, like firing missiles weapons into melee. But I prefer to just let you say 'yeah I know its tail is weak, I'll attack that this round'. One is going to reward knowledge of a monster (and obtaining it), one is going to make it more difficult by employing chance.

Does Attacking a Turned Undead "Unturn" it?

It's not stated anywhere in the rules exactly, though most people are pretty clear about cornering undead. If they can't flee, they will be cornered and fight back. Now if they flee and have room, I prefer in my games that it breaks the turn for that undead (not all that were turned). Some prefer that they will continue to flee, as if by a failure of morale so that the attacks at the back as they flee are free. And finally, others prefer that undead become useless.

Magic bows firing non-magical Arrows

It doesn't specifically state (and specially states differently on some other missile weapons) that magical bows cause the mundane arrows that are fired to be able to strike as magical weapons. Make sure to put enough ways to get magical ammo into your game if you're like me and don't have the bow enchant the arrow beyond it's +1 to hit and damage effect.

In Conclusion

The rules disagreements come from a weird place, particularly with people who have been running a certain way for decades. These ideas work into their eco-system of interpretations, they are instinctual, and allow them to run smoother games. People who successfully run AD&D campaigns with their particular set of interpretations are often 'correct' too as they have resulted in fun and successful campaigns, making it the ideal. I can only imagine that reading something counter to their ideal as possibly a badwrongfun declaration. It shouldn't be viewed that way. These are rules considerations to be made once you have a handle on the system overall, not infinite branching logic trails to learning the game.

AD&D Combat Example 3

Burlapsack the level 5 fighter (26 hp, AC: 1)

Loudandpreach the level 5 cleric (22 hp, AC: 2)

Darkandmoody the level 5 assassin (15 hp, AC: 3)

Puddlepoop the level 6 thief (16 hp, AC: 5)

The adventurers come upon a chamber, descending downward towards the skeletal statue of Nergal, it's flanked by alcoves set with coffins. They venture further towards the room, but just to the door or top steps. While they are discussing their next action, time has caused a random encounter check, which shows up as 4 gnolls, wearing a crude painted skull on their chests.

Surprise is checked and the party rolls a 2 and is surprised for 2 segments.

Encounter distance is checked and the gnolls are 20 feet away. (2 on a 1d3 x 10 feet)

Surprise segments begin. The thief and the assassin have high dexterity and negate being surprised, entirely. Both have reaction adjustments of -2 and therefore are surprised for 0 segments. The fighter has a reaction adjustment of -1, so he is surprised for 1 segment. *

The gnolls charge. It will take one segment to get into melee range (and charge termination range). Gnolls move at 9", which means per segment they move 9 feet. Charging in a dungeon doubles that, which means they cover 18" a segment, which is more than enough to terminate the charge. 

Each segment of surprise allows full attacks. Both the cleric and the fighter get charged by two gnolls on the first segment of surprise.

Surprise segment 1, the gnolls charging the cleric roll a 2 and a 12, that's a definite miss on the 2. The 12 (+2 for charging, with a THAC0 of 16, means it hits AC 2, which hits the cleric) is a hit. 5 damage is rolled and applied to the cleric.

The gnolls charging the fighter roll an 13 and a 9. The 13 (+2 for charging, with a THAC0 of 16, hits AC 1, which hits the fighter. The 9 is a miss. 3 damage is rolled and applied to the fighter.

Surprise segment 2, the fighter is out of surprise. The cleric is still in. The gnolls no longer have the ability to take bonus attacks on the fighter.

The cleric is attacked two more times. This time, the rolls are 18 and 12. The 18 will hit (THAC0 of 16, hits AC -2) and the 12 (THAC0 of 16, hits AC 4) will miss. 4 more damage is applied to the cleric.

Top of Round 1

We now go into round one just as the disturbance sends ghouls bursting out of the coffins in the west room and skeletons come through the double doors to the north.

The ghouls look like they are about to charge and the skeletons are moving into the melee. Declarations are asked of the party. The assassin will quaff his potion of invisibility. The thief will run up the stairs to join his companions. The cleric will turn undead.

Initiative is rolled. Monsters get a 1 and the party gets a 5, meaning the party acts on segment 1, the monsters act on segment 5. The ghouls all want to charge, but the two most eastern ones have to run around the staircase, so they'll be engaging in melee if they can find a spot. The other 4 will charge.

Segment 1, the fighter attacks, rolls a 19 for 9 damage to the south-most gnoll, killing it. The assassin takes a segment to get out the potion. The thief moves up the stairs. The cleric turns undead and rolls a 14, it has to affect the lowest HD undead first, so he affects the skeleton (rolling a 5 for the amount of undead turned for 6 rounds) and the skeletons immediately flee back north. The ghouls are unaffected but the cleric will be able to turn again since he hasn't failed.

Segment 2, the assassin drinks the potion, but two of the ghouls made it up the steps in their charge (covering the distance required by segment 2). Their attacks are a mixture of hits and misses, causing the assassin 8 damage, but he is able to save vs paralyzation despite being unable to dodge **. The delay on his potion is 2 segments.

Segment 4, the assassin goes invisible.

Segment 5, the gnolls attack, getting no hits on the now-unsurprised fighter and cleric.

The round is finished.

Top of Round 2

The ghouls are crowding up the staircase, but the assassin is now invisible, the cleric is going to turn undead. The assassin is going to hop off the side of the stairs and try to get a more advantageous position away from the ghouls. (speeding through this round since there's nothing new to show).

Initiative is rolled. Monsters get a 4 and the party gets a 3, meaning the party acts on segment 4, the monsters act first on segment 3.

The assassin was technically in melee, so him jumping away is going to open him up to attacks. *** Invisibility has saved him from the blind attacks, however. The rest of the ghouls press in to the rear of the party, unable to charge. The gnolls attack, hitting both the cleric and fighter for 4 points of damage each.

The skeletons are still fleeing. The cleric turns undead again, and the ghouls are turned for 4 rounds, they all flee back into the room. The party elects to not attack them as they flee, which would cancel the turning.

Top of Round 3

This is a busy spot! At the top of the round, a robed man appears at the doorway, shouting at the gnolls in their language just before casting a spell. The cleric is turning undead, the thief is going to throw daggers at the robed man. The assassin is invisible and will wait for the cleric to see if he's successful before sneaking in.

Initiative is rolled, and a 5 comes up for the players, a 2 for the monsters. The party will act on segment 2  and the monsters on segment 5. 

Segment 1, because of the dexterity of the thief, his daggers are thrown at the beginning of the round. He rolls two 8s (THAC0: 19 + 2 missile attack adjustment -5 because range = AC 14, which is a miss on the robed mans AC of 7).

Segment 2, the fighter swings at a gnoll, scoring a 15 which will hit and deals 7 points of damage to the gnoll, which isn't enough to kill it. The cleric turns undead, rolls a 15, and rolls a 7, making all the ghouls flee backward into the west room for 7 rounds.

Segment 3, the assassin waits for the ghouls to leave the staircase.

Segment 4, the assassin could elect to move silently (12' per round, making it about 4 rounds to get to the robed man DMG p19) but opts to take his chances of being heard and moves his normal movement rate to the main room.

Segment 5, the gnolls attack, rolling a 9, 11, and 13 which is not enough to hit the fighter or the cleric. At the end of segment 5 (spells are init + casting time -1 but last of segment), the magic missile from the robed man goes off at the cleric striking him for 12 damage bringing him to 3 hp (22 -5 -4 -12).

Segment 6, the assassin reaches just outside of the melee and decides that he'll continue silently.

Top of Round 4

The robed man is again casting. The cleric can fight now that the undead have been cleared. The thief steps into the melee. The assassin creeps towards the robed man. He'll get into a reasonable spot if his move silently works on the following round since he's only moving 12' per round (which is why he didn't move silently before hand - moving stealthily is very slow).

Initiative comes up 3 on the players roll, 6 on the monsters. Monsters act on segment 3 while the players act on segment 6.

Segment 3, the gnolls attack the cleric rolling a 9 (miss) and a 20 (hit) and score 4 on the cleric. The cleric is at -1 and now unconscious, bleeding out. The other gnoll rolls a 2 which misses.

Segment 4, at the end, the robed man successfully mirror images making 2 copies of himself.

Segment 6, the fighter rolls a 19 and kills a gnoll scoring 5 damage and kills it. The thief rolls a 5 and misses the gnoll.

Top of Round 5

The mirror images are all casting again. The cleric bleeds out. The thief and fighter attack. The assassin, now confused with three possible target, takes his chance at a backstab.

Initiative is rolled and the players score a 4 and the monster score a 4.

Segment 4, the thief/assassin are using short swords, the fighter is using a long sword, which are both faster weapon speeds than the gnolls spears. The thief goes first along with the assassin.

The thief rolls an 18, dealing 6 damage to a gnoll. The fighter rolls a 15 and scores 4 points of damage on that same gnoll bringing another gnoll down.

The assassin rolls to strike a clone, rolling a 1:3 (we say roll a 1 or 2 on a D6 and you get the right one, he rolls a 2) chance to strike the correct one with his to-hit roll of 16. He lucks out, hits the right clone in the middle of casting a lightning bolt (which would have happened at the end of segment 6) and deals 12 damage to the robed man, bringing him down.

The gnoll gets to roll, scores a 5, hitting nothing.

Now the party has to finish off the gnoll and stabilize the cleric before the undead come rushing back soon.

* BTB there is no distinction of what it means to not be a surprised individual of a surprised party, but here we make surprise a status effect. Surprise being: can be attacked during surprise segments, cannot use dexterity for AC (kind of optional), cannot use shields (optional). With this, it makes surprise segments resolve faster, rather than be micro rounds that take just as long as a combat round to resolve in real time, and surprised players can start acting sooner.

The alternative is to allow unsurprised characters react, fight, attack, cast, etc during surprise segments. In this example, we'd have to determine the order of action for the Gnolls and the party members on each segment and resolve them thusly.

**  I will not allow a dex bonus when someone is trying to do something other than concentrate on fighting.

*** All fleeing and charging happen at the top of the round.